I am Taeko Oda. I am just an Animator. I just participate in various anime. About the anime I’ve participated in, I entered an animation company in 1977. I quit in 1983.

And until 1987 I had a 4-year blank since I was raising a kid. From 1987 until now I have been a freelance animator.

So you started by entering a specific company where you would be there physically and draw animation. Then you stopped being in the anime industry for a while.

Yes.

And when you came back, it was as freelancer. Working from home like now.

That’s right. At that time, a senior introduced me.

I see.

Sending work through mails, having meetings via phone call, and it continues until now.

In the first company I worked for, I animated “Lupin Sansei,” “Lupin the Third Part II” and then “Genso Tensai Bakabon.”

I did in-between animation for a year and a half. Sometimes, people rely on me as “a help” to do tasks they cannot cover. My superior was having troubles with deadlines, so they asked me for help in key animation. That’s when I started as a key animator. I started with “Hoshi no Ouihi Sama” while helping my team. At that time, in the company I worked for, we had three executives and I worked under one of them, but I had not studied key animation then. Apparently, the other two were against that I helped in key animation since I did just 1 year and a half of in between animation. But still, it happened. (Laugh) So I did key animation from that point on.

That is very fast! Promotion from in-between to key animation is a big thing!

It was quite fast.

As expected, Oda Sensei is awesome.

No no no. (Laugh)

The anime where I actually studied key animation was “The Adventures of Tom Sawyer,” by Nippon Animation. Our boss was the top of the Japanese animation side, and I started learning layout then.

From then you did layouts.

It was different from a school. You cannot expect everyone to be good teachers. You draw your layout, you show it to the boss, and he/she corrects it. And I observed those corrections carefully.

That is how I learned.

More than “jump,” I had to do layouts when working on key animation.

Ooh, I see.

I am not sure if I knew well what I was doing. In a popular anime, there is a lot of daily life scenes. I wasn’t doing action scenes and difficult perspectives. We must do layouts that are quite “basic.” And I started studying from there.

You started from the easy part.

Yes.

So many anime listed!

Actually, there are anime I am proud I worked on. Like “Tottoko Hamtaro.”

(Laugh). Hamtaro!

Yes, I animated quite a lot of it. 50 cuts at least. Then, from this area of the list I entered as “rotation.” So I did only 4-5 chapters per anime. Lately, there are many short anime, right? 13 chapters per anime season. In the rotation system, animators can do just 1 chapter per season at most. There is not much time in the production schedule, so they would ask “Could we ask you to do just 10 cuts?”

If I include them, there should be more of them that I got involved with. Like, even if you do 4 cuts only, your name will appear on the list.

Oh, I understand.

I cannot feel like “I made this.”

Exactly.

Instead of the same person doing one chapter after the other, you just do a little part.

Yes.

That is terrible! You have to learn to draw new characters all the time. Just for one time. That is really impressive.

Yes. When someone sees my name there they say, “You worked on this?!” I am like “I just did 4 cuts..."

But you really could not do more than that! I get it, woah.

Definitely, after doing key animation, I really felt “now I am in!” Then I worked on “Mame Ushi Kun” Animation for kids. That is the first time I worked on a 15-minute animation.

15 min chapters.

Oh, but before that, I worked at “Hello! Sandybell.” That was… when it had been 4 years since I started my career as an animator, starting my 5^th year with anime. They allowed me to direct the animation. I corrected the characters drawn by other animators.

Oh, I see.

I did not know the details of the anime.

It started here!

Then there is “Live On Cardliver Kakeru.” We did not have a general director, just the bunch of directors assigned to several parts. I worked on around 5 chapters (rotation system). It was a 15min/chapter animation. Technically 30 min divided in 2 parts. So I did 15 minute parts. I am quite proud of that.

There are various. I worked quite a lot for “Gintama.” Basically, I am happy to work on major works. I mean, famous animes.

Oh, I see!

“Ano Hi Mita Hana no Namae o Bokutachi wa Mada Shiranai.” I worked on key animation for those.

Woah! Incredible! I think you also worked in “Inazuma Eleven.”

Right, I did quite a lot of it too.

And “Inuyasha” I believe… kanketsu-Hen (Final Season)?

Yes! For Inuyasha, I was supposed to work as animation director but the animation director chief didn’t allow it.

In the end, I could just do 1. Even if I wanted to do more.

And the name is in the credits, since you did participate.

Yes, because I did key animation for a full chapter.

Oh! A full chapter?!

Yes, the full 30 minutes. It took so much time. “Inuyasha Kanketsu Hen.” Chapter 4 maybe? It is called “Tessaiga.” Yes, I think so. I think it took one month and a half.

1.5 months for 1 chapter of key animation for “Kanketsu Hen.” Incredible.

I do like Inuyasha so I wanted to do more. But it wasn’t available after doing 1 full chapter.

It was already given to other animators.

Exactly, it didn’t enter the rotation system.

According to the schedule, around 4 weeks. 2 weeks layout, 2 weeks key animation. Sometimes there’s less time. One I am currently doing gave me 1 week for layouts and I took 10 cuts for that one.

10 cuts! Oohhh… Sounds challenging!

Yes. Sometimes the schedule is too tight; other animators would also agree on that. We want more time to do it better, and draw it properly.

(Nods)

But you delivered it because of the deadline and then it came back as it needs to be corrected?

Yes, definitely. If the animation director is strict it happens often, but I respect the schedule until the last day and I avoid the producer’s complaint.

I see! (Laughs)

The fact that I do what I like to do! When you are a freelancer, you don’t know if more work will come. In the last 2-3 years, there have been many anime. Even if I reject some proposals, more work comes. The phone will ring again.

That is good! Oda Sensei is a great animator.

Oh, no!

I am sure of it.

Well, sometimes I also get rejected.

When you are in a company, you see more of that anime. You can meet with the editor, the director.

The process seems faster.

Fast?

The anime will get better.

You can easily ask about the meaning of the cuts. You can talk. As a freelancer, well, I’ve been a freelancer for a long time. I can pick the anime I want to work on and I can manage the workload better.

And because there are lots of companies/anime now, I can choose well.

When the storyboard arrives, before they contact me, I will email them what part I want to take. “I want to do X and Y!”

But sometimes they will assign cuts in advance. And I will say yes to that.

Also, they know what your strengths are, right?

Exactly. Sometimes, when the producer knows me for a long time, they know what I like already. “I think this is good for Ms. Oda,” they say for me.

Ahh! And because you like it, it is what you are good at.

That is right. When you want to draw something, you make more effort. So, if I say “I like humor scenes,” they say “This is a humorous scene, please assign it to Ms. Oda.”

They come and say “I selected a good part for you.”

That is great. Now that I see you working on Crayon ShinChan, it must be perfect!

(Oda sensei laughs)

In my first year at University.

I was watching the animated version of “Umi no Toriton.”

Watching animation.

Exactly.

Thinking “I also want to draw this?”

Yes. My first year at the University is around 40 years ago (laughs). There weren’t many video tapes available so I went to various broadcasting events. There was a University club specialized in that (booking rooms to broadcast anime). They brought the 60mm films. I watched anime like “The Great Adventure of Horus, Prince of the Sun.” I can’t remember others now (Laughs). Basically, I watched anime around and made friends with the same interests, from that group many entered the anime industry.

Hmmm. It is difficult to actually meet, but we are connected online.

I see. We talked about this before but, students that currently enter the animation industry don’t work there for a long time.

Right.

If you think about when we started, “Lupin the Third Part II” or “Genso Tensai Bakabon,” the quality wasn’t so great and detailed. We would draw 500 as a small job, within the time we were given. There are few animators that can draw 500 drawings at once.

Now drawing has more details. Animation has become more and more complicated and many animation apprentices can’t keep up. They can’t draw it.

When I entered the company, it was a requirement to live close. There were various people coming from remote areas to live close, like my superiors. But you can’t take much care of the house.

That still happens recently. It happened to me as well. An extra layer of difficulty for foreigners is that, if you can’t demonstrate that you can afford living alone while being an animator, you can’t even get it. You need support to make up for the low salary and living costs, or have a lot of savings. You technically can be an animator, but you can’t support living abroad, at least in Japan.

I heard from one of the previous year’s anime graduate students, she entered an animation studio but struggled. She was from (???). She stopped once for a year, and grained some savings with a part time job.

And then came back to an animation company.

Of course, we can do it! But the financial situation makes it more difficult.

I always did it from home.

Since my family is from Tokyo. I have done it for many years and became a pro. I liked it, and I kept doing it.

Yes.

Looks like happiness. Another reason why newbies have it more difficult now, when I started I didn’t have to pay the pension tax.

Ah, right.

You must pay it after 18 years old. Also, there are scholarships and loans for University and Vocational schools. But when you start working, you may have not received the money yet. Or need to pay the loan back. You have to pay for mandatory insurance and pension.

If you live here alone, you have to be able to pay for a while.

I think that is tough.

Absolutely. If the government was lighter, it would be nice though.

You can become an animator if you want to but, there are obstacles like these depending on your own situation.

Yes. Not many companies will pay for the training/school.

And if you need to do many animation retakes, the salary takes longer to come in. Until you draw that cut properly, you are not compensated for it.

Yes, that is correct.

If I can, I try to. I like anime, so I naturally watch the ones I like. If I am not interested in that anime, I may not watch it even if I worked on it! (Laugh).

So you watch anime in general, but sometimes you don’t watch the ones you’ve worked on.

Exactly. Even if I don’t watch them.

Ahh! They ship it to you.

They sent me a copy (DVD), but I haven’t seen this one yet.

I haven’t seen it even if I did part of it.

So the producers actually send it to you as a DVD.

Sometimes they don’t send it, but yes.

I see!

Actually, I have participated often in “Naruto” and “Boruto: Naruto Next generations.”

But I haven’t watched it yet.

Probably people watching this video won’t believe this (Laughs). But well.

Well you see…

“She drew something great and yet! She doesn’t watch it?!” But you actually saw it many times, since you drew it. You did the art so you can imagine the final results.

Ah, yes.

I don’t know many animators specifically.

What about anime? “X anime’s layout is awesome,” or “It would be great to do art like in Y anime.”

I can’t remember now.

It is okay.

I believe people who can do correct perspectives are great. I draw the perspective “good enough.” So that is where I end up having to redraw cuts, or the compositor staff corrects that. So I am like “Yes, I’ll improve it.”

Usually, the director or composition staff will make corrections to it.

I see.

I still can’t do perspective with 1 or 3 focal points.

Is there an example of layout here? Is this okay?

I based the drawing on the storyboard and took the proportions from the character sheets.

This is a “Line up” right? So you can see how tall everyone is. And in the storyboards you can see who is where.

Yes. That is how I draw the layout.

They are in a house... no, outside! (Checking papers)

I read the scene to know. But in this case, I will leave it to the background artist.

I see! And from this layout, you can do the key animation.

Yes, this is still the layout. Usually after doing the layout, I would add a draft for the key animation. But in this specific work, it is not necessary.

If there is movement, then I have to add key animation and then they check it for final corrections.

So, usually, the layout is just 1 drawing.

In the key animation, you add guidelines for the major movements/changes to animate in that cut.

Exactly!

The second key animation will make those drawings more beautiful and clean. Then, the in-between animator makes drawings in between those guides to create the movement of illusion. So this is the first drawing of that process (layout). You decide the framing, characters location, expressions.

Yes, in the layout I take care of perspective and what you mentioned.

I get it. There are people doing layouts correctly with lots of detail.

I am not that perfectionist.

(Laughs) If others can understand it, it should be fine I guess?

That is right.

But for ShinChan it doesn’t seem so complex.

However, it looks difficult to do the proportions right (Which makes them recognizable).

There are people very good at in-between animation. In most company leaders you see: employee, manager, department.

In animation it is as follows: in-between animation, key animation, animation director; I wanted to climb. At least in the beginning. So first, I wanted to become an animator and I started as an in-between animator. Next “I want to be a key animator.” Next “I want to try character design.” That was my dream. But then I became a key animator 1.5 years after being hired, which was pretty fast.

That is true.

Some people prefer in-between to key animation. I’ve done key animation for years so I don’t draw in-between drawings. But in the past, I really liked cleaning up the key animation and doing the in-betweens. Before, the in-betweens weren’t that restricted. For example, do you know the “head turning” movement?

Yes, moving the head from A to B.

In the past, the in-betweeners had freedom on how to animate most of the movements.

In key animation you only draw the head from A to B. And the In-betweener decides the full movement in between A and B.

Yes. Now, the key animators will add various drawings between A and B to indicate the correct path. So they took out part of the freedom. In the past I could think “how to move X.” It was the job of the in-betweener. That was fun. Now you really need to just follow the guidelines by the key animators. Of course, the creative part is still there, but now the key animators do most of it. I have always liked drawing expressions and dramatic situations. So now, being a key animator, it is fun.

I see. So it is not that what you like to draw has changed. However, since the process has changed, you actually needed to climb the ladder to keep doing what you want.

That is right. I have a fiend, “A”, who worked as an in-between animator at Studio Ghibli for years. “A” tried with key animation for a while. But “A” was great at in-between animation. So “A” stopped doing key animation. “A” couldn’t keep up because of health reasons so now they are not in the industry anymore. How old… oh! “A” must be 80+ years old now! So “A” is not working anymore probably. It is sad, since it is health related.

With just key animation, the animation is incomplete. What I thought when I was an in-beetweener is that an in-betweening is a very important job, since those are the final drawings that we see on screen.

When the anime bubble exploded, there was a pretty complicated season. There was less anime being done.

Especially when there were fewer jobs, I struggled with my cuts being approved. The layouts, the characters, the movement of the animation… everything was wrong they said. That season was incredibly depressing. For 2 months, I couldn’t even stand watching the anime I like. Not 2 months, maybe 1. Even watching the anime broadcasted on TV hurt, I couldn’t watch anime.

I see. Seems terrible.

When I spoke with another superior, they said “Yeah… that boss says such mean reviews.” (Laugh). My superior wasn’t surprised and acted calmly.

I can’t remember exactly but, during that period, I called various companies. They all said there was no work. At least for a month, there were no jobs. So I contacted the boss of a company I worked for previously. “Even if it is in-between animation, please let me do it.” I did in-betweening (again) for 4 months or so. A friend of mine was working for a special animation for Lupin that would air in the summer and invited me to participate, and I got back to my usual position.

That is great! So basically, you went one step down to the company leader to enter the industry again. That is smart.

Usually people would not say I draw in a rush. Back then, I used to work on maximum 2 anime at a time. That was my limit, but I was scared that I would get rejected again. There is a saying, “If you say no 2 times, they won’t invite you a 3rd.” If you say no to 2 work proposals, you will lose that source.

I see.

My peak at that time was working on 11 anime at once. And I could kind of manage. What I do now is… look. Just these ones. 5 anime projects.

Oh, this means that I am doing animation direction and key animation, both.

This means that I delivered the layouts already. When they get accepted, I mark this with color. But they didn’t come back! At this rate, the second key animators will struggle. Now it has stopped.

So these numbers are the cut numbers... And this is… if they came back? (looking at Oda’s memos on the table)

That is when I send them.

Oh sent!

I note the dates. If it comes back, I paint it here. And once it is approved, there.

In the case of “Crayon ShinChan’s,” I delivered the layouts. That is 5 cuts.

Ooh. This is the TV series right? Not the movies.

Correct!

Oda Sensei focuses on TV anime.

Exactly.

I did work for a movie called “Hanakappa.” We were mainly 3 key animators. I did 120 cuts.

I really wanted to do it. And you are really proud later.

Yes of course.

120 cuts… how many minutes is that? 120 cuts. I don’t remember how many.

8 frames per second? Even if it is a movie?

Yes.

Hm. A lot!

That is not how to calculate it. Each cut will have different length, so actually, the more cuts you do from a project, the more motivated. If you just do 10 cuts, when you watch the anime later, it is so short.

Ahhmmm.

It could be a personal thing too.

As expected, there are people with lots of talent. And you may feel jealous or hurt by that.

But you should draw what you can draw. For example, this is a story about an animation director. Although now that person is the CEO. In this industry, it is not that everyone is great at what they do, it wouldn’t be enough with just the talented ones. Obviously, the animation director can’t do everything.

Yes.

So there are better/worse staff. The worst ones can keep going while learning from the best ones. So… how can I say this? I learned not to think that I can’t do it.

Aah.

That is how I keep going when corrections come.

Ah. So, even if you think you are not good, follow the ones that are better, and keep moving forward.

Even if they can’t use that cut, the animation director will correct it. Just make sure that, when you think you don’t do well, don’t think “That is okay as it is.” When corrections come, learn from them. “Please keep going to improve.” That’s it. Of course when doing illustration, uhm. When you finish many animation cuts, that becomes a great experience.

I see.

I have always drawn pretty fast. Because I draw fast, I can get practice fast.

I learned because I have drawn a lot. Currently, new hires are afraid of making mistakes. They struggle and can’t finish on time and don’t move forward. Before becoming an animator, I was in a group of manga, full of professional mangakas. The president of the group believed that even if you don’t finish a project, you gained a lot from thinking/working on it. But if you don’t finish it, the ideas in your head become meaningless. Even if you know your work is not the best, please do finish it. Then, you can receive advice and feedback from others. Summarizing, it is of course important to do things right. Because I am fast, people would say I am “sloppy.”

Sloppy?

Not detailed. That’s how they described me. If you are too perfectionist and scared of corrections, you lose a lot of time. It is best to do it roughly “would this be okay?” And ask for a check. Then you will learn about patterns you need to fix. And do (learn) faster.

I just said it. Draw a lot, draw fast, and don’t be discouraged.

Got it! (Laugh) Thank you.

Although because I am getting older, I do less now.

You may have a goal perhaps?

I want to keep drawing anime I like.

(Laugh) Of course. That’s how I work.

Like in this case. I have no time but since I want to do it I ended up taking it!

Next month a manga I really like will have its own anime. I wasn’t that reckless lately, but I couldn’t refuse it even if I am busy!

You usually manage so you can take the anime you like.

Exactly.

Otherwise, where’s the fun?

Well, I am over 60 years old now.

In your 20s and 30s, you should do everything, and not refuse work.

So you can get experience in various fields.

Correct. When you get to work on the anime you like, but you can’t actually draw it.

Yes.

That happened to me and I couldn’t have fun. The animation director added many corrections.

You have to draw a lot.

If you don’t draw everything, you may not be able to draw properly what you actually enjoy.

Something you want to do. Hmm. Basically, to keep thinks like now. Not getting rejected when I ask to participate in X anime. Usually things are fine, but last year my health wasn’t very good. So I want to be brave and reject animes if I don’t like them (Laughs). That even if I have to reject 3-4 anime… actually I did reduce the anime I take regularly. I don’t want to overwork. Actually, I joined a sports gym last January.

Oh!

Yes. My goal was to keep working until I am 70. But now I think I would like to keep working until I am 80!

That’s my goal now. 80 years old. So I can keep going, I will not overwork. My limit would be 1-2 chapters of anime per month.

Oh, this is great.

I want to keep going!

I am cheering on you! So good.

As a freelancer, you don’t know a lot about what’s going on. Friends update me on an upcoming anime. Next summer a movie from “Natsume Yujin-cho” is coming.

I saw that online but I didn’t know which company was doing it. In the past, I participated in “Natsume’s” TV anime.

So I emailed my old boss there “So, I heard that a movie is coming.” But he said he couldn’t tell me. Sometimes, like this, there is a project I really want to be in. Instead of thinking, “Oh, I’d like to do it,” actually try! Ask “Let me do it please.” Once I finally discovered who was the actual producer of the movie, I called directly.

Oh, nice.

“Let me in” I said.

At that moment I was doing 4 others. And the 5^th came.

The 5^th?

5^th. I do 5 anime simultaneously now.

Which is very risky.

So tight.

And the 4^th is still not coming back so.

Right, now you work on 5 animes.

These 2. This is the 4^th. That’s the 5^th.

Wait this is February’s.

I handled the layouts on January 11^th. This should be finished on February 7^th. There’s just one month left.

(Laugh).

Why is it not coming back so I start the key animation?

The production company, or anime title?

Anime title!

Yes, that’s okay. This one is Banana Fish.

“Banana Fish” and…

That is “Darling in the Franxx.”

This one is a PV (Advertisement). And I can’t tell more.

Okay!

It is a Chinese anime. The one I worked on until recently is “Yurukyan.”

Oh, so cute!

I worked as an animation director for this one. And I finished it already. Supposedly, the DVD should come soon, but they haven’t contacted me yet.

I corrected like 80 cuts. I enjoyed it actually. I didn’t do the key animation of this one (just corrections).

Yes, I want to draw him.

Yay! Thank you very much! I’ll go get the character sheet.

---

From now I would like to ask you about Return the Favor, the animation I created. The animation we did.

Yes. I really think you did a great job.

Thank you! Oda Sensei, as one of our teachers, you saw me while I was acting as director of the animation. Regarding what you observed, was there something that surprised you?

Ehmm. In the 5 years I have been a teacher there, this is the short with the best quality I have seen.

Thank you so much! Which are parts you think we could improve? There must be some mistake (Laughs).

The background could be improved.

Like, the lights at the end?

No, I mean, I told you lately. For example, the background in the pan of the first cut.

It will improve by adding more detail to the rocks/ground.

Ah, right. The background where Wendel picks up the feather.

Yes.

I could improve the volumes of those rocks.

Also, when we were in the festival, people looked at your short.

Right!

They said “The background is pretty!”

Oh!

Yes. “The colors are nice,” “I see how this is not made by a Japanese.”

(Laughs)

Those are things I heard.

The feeling I had it that. I know that with just a little bit of detail it would improve a lot.

Yes, right.

You could define the volumes better, so the rocks in the first cut don’t get merged with the ground. So the rocks look more like rocks. It is like the cliff where I suggested you to add more shadows, remember?

Yes. There, Oda Sensei’s advice worked so well.

It improved, right?

Yes!

In the same way, you can improve that first cut.

Yes.

Another part that is great, is when the dragon skids on the cliff.

Oh I know which one.

It looked awesome.

Ahh, you mean cut 30. Where the camera is above.

Yes.

It skids like “Zaas,” and the dust spreads. That dust.

Thank you! Yes, Suzuki sensei helped with the dust, in how dust works. At class we did not practice smoke/dust at all.

I think that movement in that cut is my favorite.

Thank you!

And the one you did, where the dragon takes off.

When Wendel jumps to his back and starts flying?

But in the end, it gets cut very quickly. I would have liked to see a bit more of it.

Yeah. That section was difficult. To make the dragon fly and add the camera movements, I spent a full weekend fixing the key animation. I got motion sick and had to stay in bed for 2 hours and then continued, since I was experimenting with the camera movements, I got myself sick. Those are difficult cuts.

You have lots of camera movements.

Yes!

Like when Wendel runs. And then, there are a lot of drawings on detailed movements like turning the head.

I am sorry.

Was it Nagi who did it?

Ah no, Matsubara.

Yes, Matsubara!

The part when Wendel runs, stops and turns around, right?

Yes.

And when he just turns the head slightly. We optimized it and cut drawings from the original plan, but still…

Yes. It is similar to an anime movie. Will you make some changes to it?

Yes, during the next month (before the launch). While I start in my full time job.

I see.

I will focus on improving the sound effects and maybe the rocks on cut 1. I will improve the volumes as you said. The animation itself is quite okay as it is now.

That 's right.

I could improve it. But the worst part now is the sound. Also, no one realized until now but, when rendering the last cut (41), I forgot the light sparkles!

No one noticed. But it is odd. Although my computer will struggle with rendering that cut… (Laugh). So I still haven’t done it. But it is necessary.

Actually, the people in the festival said, “the effects are pretty,” when looking at the sparkles.

Ooh! I couldn’t hear most of the comments…

(Laughs)

Thank you very much Oda sensei!